socom 16 effective range

I found I was able to hit whatever I wanted with the M-14's that I used in the USMC. Again we totally accept that we are by no means amazing shooters, but this shouldnt be that hard. I own an M1A Scout and had a totally different experience. Do we not understand the point of aim with M14 irons? We'll only use the information provided according to our privacy policy. Our Custom 1911 pistolsmiths have over 200 combined years of experience and individually hand fit every major component of your firearm. I own two of the Springfield's M1A. You have the power of the 7.62 NATO in a carbine-sized package. The rifles were well cared for and I'm sure there was no "new" on any of the barrels but I told the guy assisting me right then an there that "I have GOT to get me one of these!!" The SuperMatch Ive owned for 3 decades Right side of Springfield Armory SOCOM 16 CQB wearing Flat Dark Earth stock. Product specifications are subject to change without notice. This rifle, with heavy stock and barrel was made heavier by putting rolls of pennys in the cleaning rod cavity of the stock. - YouTube 0:00 / 9:27 Springfield Armory M1A SOCOM 16 Accuracy Test. Im looking forward to seeing what kind of accuracy and distance I can get with the Scout Scope/match ammo and possibly an upgraded trigger. Since I was a member of the Units Pistol Team, I was able to attend the course during the off-season. Aimpoint T2 Micro; Trijicon RMR; wars in Iraq and Afghanistan opened a need for a military rifle that could engage targets at ranges far outside the M-16/M-4s maximum effective range. You do not pay Two metallic quick release (QD) flush cup sling swivel ports are located on the right and left sides near the muzzle with two more just above the AR-type removable pistol grip. I have shot quite a few m1a rifles and all with decent ammo would shout 1.5moa precision with .75moa accuracy. The M14, in theory, would simplify the makeup of the weapons fielded by the standard American infantry squad. Plus it's just a lot of fun to shoot :-). I believe now that my shirt bunched up and the rifle may have slid while prone. It was a semi-auto and had no full auto switch on it. Accessories and optics can be mounted on barrels Picatinny rail. The single-piece Archangel composite stock is loaded with features that will please the tactically minded. I load my own ammo from new components whenever I go to match. This is crucial to shooting consistent groups. The M1A SOCOM 16 CQB in .308 Win. I witnessed a live-fire demonstration of this load fired into calibrated 10 percent ballistic gelatin. 42Gr 4895 Federal match primers lake city match cases and 168 gr BT hollow points. That being said, I really wish it lived up to its name as the rifle feels really good in hand. What brand of brass and bullet do you prefer? OF my Top Ten favorite we used were all Match-grade M21s, FEATURES rifles that Ive shot and worked on in my life, the M1A has to beat the top of the list. The M1As safety is located within the trigger guard itself, and is essentially a metal tab that you press forward to disengage. The leading brilliant minds of the time legitimately saw a future in which the M14 would replace the M3 grease gun and Thompson submachine guns, the BAR as a squad automatic weapon, the Springfield 1903 as a marksman rifle, and the M1 Garand and M1 carbine a total overhaul of the ammunition and parts needed to keep a squad well supplied and operational. It comes up naturally to give a quick and comfortable sight picture without the need for a cheek rest adapter even more so with the red dot. Snipers in ww2 had even lower standards. If you aren't it will bitch and complain at you all day. AR-15 solutions in rifle, SBR, and PCC configurations. The civilian market in High-Power competition only saw M1A's on the firing line, standard or highly accurized, through the late 1990's. Even with no magnification, author shot groups of about two inches. Let us know what you think of the M1A and how it went all wonky for us. John, I have the Scout Squad, which is a hybrid of the socom and standard. Fast forward to range trip number 3, and close to 900 rounds of .308 later aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we were finally able to get some usable numbers out of these guns! The knowledge base there has been handed down since the late 1800s in America and Britain, and built on for generations since. .308 WIN MSRP $2,087 - $2,540 M1A Scout Squad Rifles Combining the legendary power and accuracy of the M1A with the quick handling and fast sight acquisition of a scout style rifle. Takes time learning it. Steve Sieberts has over 40 years in the firearms field. Popular 9mm Ammo. Like I said, I am no expert marksman by any means so I am not sure what happened. Got a sadlak guide rod and piston in it, and of my 18 guns, this one's my baby. Only thing added is scopes and shoot the same of 1.125-1.50 @ 100yds and only the M1A 2 tapped a hole numerous times. Straight up no BS. They are about equal as far as accuracy. Additionally, most models of the M1A are naturally featureless if thats a concern for you, although it certainly would have been fun to play with some of the wilder EBR style chassis. That seems like very poor quality control with no recalls, even though many people are having similar problems. (Beware of the scammers on Craig's List!) I have to say my results are very different than yours. The piece that always nagged at me is that it has never shot as accurately as I thought it should. Stocks are also available in Black, OD Green and MultiCam. Preferably, almost necessarily straight back. It cannot be operated from the shoulder at all. Ready to fire? The M14 I shot in service compared to the m1a I purchased are two totally different dogs but they both like 162 and 168 grain bullets. I think now what Im seeing is more like an average typical Springfield m1a. & Delta. You could fully load an M-4 style rifle with 30 rounds, optic, sling, and laser and be close to that same weight. Considering youll be rocking the ergonomics of an 80 some odd-year-old rifle design, you can expect to feel out of place if youre the type of dude thats used to adjustable length of pull and a c-clamp style grip. I have a M1A National Match in 6.5 Creedmoor. From additional reading and talking to folks, the M-14 works quite well when wet (like emerging from the sea, weapons at the ready). Outside of that, rifle to rifle, is the old grip inferior? Springfield Armory was kind enough to send us both a National Match M1A and a SOCOM16 to try out for ourselves and we hoped that by the end, wed have enough insight to give you a reasonable everyman opinion. What is the effective range of a Socom 16? .308 WIN At this point, we were pretty blown away. Even the lightest .458 SOCOM round is more than three times heavier than the M855 round. Totally different way of handling the M-14/M1A platform (DuckDuckGo / G*^%&e Sage Stocks and you will see what I mean). For more information go to www.P65Warnings.ca.gov. Prevent child access by always keeping guns locked away and unloaded when not in use. Lastly your article seems to discount the M1A as an almost unuseful relic, taking shots at every tiny thing. As I was finishing my military career, the M16 was just coming online in competitive circles and were giving the M14/M1A a run for the money. 460 meters/500 yards here. NO. And blaming the rifles for the flyers sounds pretty sketchy to me. A variety of loads are available in the 250 to 600-grain range. Maximum effective range is based purely on the ability to put bullets on the target with standard sights and arsenal ammunition. I'm not really into shilling for Springfield, recent research into the AR platform had me seriously eyeing their Saint Edge, but after reading about some of the local politics Springfield Armory has engaged in, I believe I'll spend my money with a company that cares about the 2nd Amendment for ALL Americans. WebThe Springfield Armory M1A is a semi-automatic rifle made by Springfield Armory, Inc., beginning in 1971, based on the M14 rifle, for the civilian and law enforcement markets in the United States. Interesting though, I've had a c308 laying around my closet for 2 years and really didn't like it even though I hadn't fired it. Forgive me if I sound like Captain Obvious, but do you think the fact that you shot .308 and not 7.62 might have something to do with it? Copyright 2023 Pew Pew Media, Inc. All rights reserved. ABM ammo shot best groups of the day at 100 yards with Aimpoint installed. Great rifle, just takes skill and practice to know how to shoot them. ABM ammo shot best groups of the day at 100 yards with Aimpoint installed. Standard Pistol Calibers. I'll say, nerd or not. As for accuracy, it is probably due to inexperience. Yes I am a bearded wonder and find shooting shotguns and AR's uncomfortable in the unwanted grooming department. I bought a brand new, unused first run RRA .458 SOCOM upper for $600. ), so I was anxious to see how the SOCOM 16 CQB configuration compared. Just wanted some feedback from people that .308 WIN MSRP $2,087 - $2,540 M1A Scout Squad Rifles Combining the legendary power and accuracy of the M1A with the quick handling and fast sight acquisition of a scout style rifle. 1911 which has served for more than a century with members of the U.S. military. I was trying to find a M1A in 6.5 Creedmoor and all the information I found online talked about what an awesome rifle it was. Proposition 65 requires California to publish a list of chemicals known to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. Comment below if you think were posers. More than likely shifting of head, where you sat your cheek, how you looked through the ring. This means that every time you visit this website you will need to enable or disable cookies again. Purchased a bayonet w/scabbard at a local gun show. Click below for a FREE LESSON! WebM1A SOCOM 16 Rifles In both tactical and traditional forms, the SOCOM 16 will answer your call for a compact tactical rifle without sacrificing power. Very surprised by your experience with the platform. The M14 socom has a shorter barrel than the standard M14 and thus has a shorter effective range of about 500 yards. I hope the buyers of those toys realize that is a high price to pay for implied accuracy. This lets the shooter go from scope to iron sights very quickly if needed. I am an ageing Marine infantryman that trained on an A2 service rifle. I'm certain I made some changes that nobody has on a c308. After the Marines, I sold my 'Super Match' equivalent that was hand built by a former USMC Armorer back in California (like in 1990). I love the aesthetics of the M1 and M14 rifles but they are from a bygone era and it shows. They need a consistent, repeatable and fairly accurate one. I love these rifles they are true battle rifles don't get me wrong i own two AR'15's one in .223 and the other in 6.8 which if going into combat the 6.8 is the shit by a long shoot, for it's recoil and it's stopping power (80% stopping power of a .308 round in such a small package). I was not able to test or use the iron sights with it, as the red dot obstructs the view. But I have experienced the same thing as you have, are beautiful rifles and sexy as hell just not something I need around my house. Had no choice. Back in the 1970-80s, I shot on a military rifle team that was issued NM M14s. It just feels good to me, and I find that I actually get a more consistent sight picture with the M1A than I do with ARs. The M1A's is perfection. Finger off the trigger but posted on the trigger guard. What a disappointment. Since this rifle/scope combination is not designed for match shooting, I decided to use a Q target for 100 yards and a B17 silhouette for 300-yard duty. This was the last original Springfield design. M1A SOCOM 16 Options Best Red Dot for M1A. That's part of what makes these rifles so special. The SOCOM 16 weighs approximately 8.8 lbs. One shoot we went to 800, but my slow load with a 60 grain V-max was key holing at 800. To achieve this it is best to start by getting acquainted with a shooting sling and building a rock solid prone position. "M1A" is a proprietary name for Springfield Armory's M14-pattern rifle. It just took me a while to find time to work on it. Adjustment graduations on the rear sight drum are 1 MOA for both windage and elevation. The SOCOM 16 is most certainly an effective weapon, but its also a fun weapon. .308 WIN MSRP $1,942 - $2,087 I was sick of that heavy thing. A pair of 1.5 side rails is installed at the factory along with a single 3" rail. Caldwell Lead Sled at 100 Yards! It ain't the best rifle, but it sure isn't outdated or the worst. Suffice to say she can be very accurate when she's treated as she demands. Once you grown used to 5.56 caliber rifles, you forget how much fun a full-powered rifle with a battle rifle or larger caliber can be. Re: AR15 16" maximum effective range A 16" AR can get you to 1K with a 1:8 or 1:7 twist barrel with the 75+ grain bullets (maybe 68 grain BTHP). Springfield Armory recommends you seek qualified and competent training from a Their approach was bias. Hate to pick out just one thingbut this "ergonomics" thingsome people are Glock Fanatics, some are AR/M4 loversme not so much. That being said, its certainly frustrating to present a gun review where the results are sort of inconclusive. Once you grown used to 5.56 caliber rifles, you forget how much fun a full-powered rifle with a battle rifle or larger caliber can be. Since I didnt have one handy, I shot the rifle as is. If u started young , 5 or 6yrs old(22lr) it's easy to remember ergonomics. Proposition 65 became law in November 1986, when California voters approved it by a 63-37 percent margin. For example, the SOCOM's barrel has been shortened to 16.25 inches, the minimum length allowed under federal law. Are they that different from the ARs and AKs were much more familiar with? Been shooting these little guys for three decades & have found some quirks that need addressing before they shoot well. Internal Adjustment Range: 75 MOA windage & elevation Click Value: 1/4 inch, Tube Diameter: 30mm, Weight: 14-1/4 ounces Overall Length: 12 inches Reticle: Fire Dot Duplex (illuminated) Price: $599.95 >> Click Here << To See Performance Charts And More Photos Thanks to the team at GUNS Magazine click here to visit them for this The AK looks like a wave of motion. Even with no magnification, author shot groups of about two inches. Was mercury in retrograde? The how too is, engage the stock with the same amount of facial surface area and the same pressure every time. Whereas an AR platform is going to recoil directly back into the buffer tube, the M1A essentially uses your dominant hand as an anchor point for the muzzle when it climbs upwards. and measures 37.25 in overall length. The gun will work just fine if you adapt your shooting style to it, but it is not the most comfortable experience in the world. The M1A is a little bit pricey depending on model, but if youre in the market for a .308 American service rifle, its essentially your only option. These This was the rifle that I went to the National Matches (hence the small sights on the "National Match" line) at Camp Perry in '92 with. which was 98.6 percent of list velocity. I have to say I absolutely love my M1A Scout. Inconsistent cheek weld and sight picture is the usual problem with the kind of shot groups you were showing. Oops, there's been an error. The M1A is the civilian sibling of the select-fire M14. But, would punch threw anything, had great range and did incredible damage when it hit. Theres also an infamous study on the M14 that essentially says the same thing, noting that the US Army tried for a few decades and concluded, a couple million dollars later, that the M24 was a better weapon system than the marksman-tier M14 they tried to create. I've been shooting M1A's since the early 90's. When I took it out of the box, my heart nearly stopped. Combining the performance of a larger handgun with class-leading concealability and capacity. Click the Go To Forum Thread link below to jump in! We'll send you the latest guides and training tips geared Bummer about your results with the M1A and M1A SOCOM. I prefer to challenge myself using iron sights.. I also picked up a nearly new, shot 50 times Predator Pursuit for $900 off of Gunbroker, nice varmint/deer package. Here, we were able to get into the mechanical functioning and design of the gun and how to turn the plain vanilla M14 into an extremely ac- curate match-grade rifle. Springfield Armory Gen 4 M1A Optics Mount. The carbon-steel components have been treated with a non-reflective black Parkerized finish that blends in neatly with the matte black of the lightweight composite stock. I know the debate about whether it's ok to use both in a rifle chambered for one or the other, but the fact that these are both 7.62 tells me you should use that if you're testing accuracy. This Mossberg 26B bolt-action rifle in .22 caliber belonged to my dad, Robert Elmo Babington. You can find out more about which cookies we are using or switch them off in settings. Old and heavy? The safety was inside the trigger guard. Thanks. Also, and this surprised me more than anything you wrotewhyWHY would anyone want to disengage the safety WITHOUT putting their finger near the trigger? Just wanted some feedback from people that Sorry, an error occurred and we could not sign you up. The 3, 6 and 9 o'clock positions of the fore-end are slotted to accept accessory rails. it did not take too much work to get a group about 1.25 inches at 100 yards. Standard Pistol Calibers. I am left handed and know several other lefty shooters that can't second any of your claims about the AR. Springfield then mounted optics to the rifles using a 4th Gen Steel Receiver mount and tested them thusly. Children are attracted to and can operate firearms that can cause severe injuries or death. Internal pockets hold ammo, cleaning gear, log books, and more ammo. you a link to reset your password. Steve Sieberts has over 40 years in the firearms field. A black composite stock provides interface with an enlarged ghost ring aperture rear sight and XS Sights tritium front post, giving you quick target acquisition. It's certainly enough gun for those civilians who are looking for a defensive option that offers plenty of punch and a host of tactical features. I shot 243 on qual day 49 from the 500 Meter line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U11URice_cM. So whats going on here? They even included the optics and mounts to ensure wed be able to repeat their results. Also, as designed by the military the gas system was only designed to handle 147 grain projectile with fast burning powders.. He references head position. .308 WIN MSRP $2,087 - $2,540 M1A Scout Squad Rifles Combining the legendary power and accuracy of the M1A with the quick handling and fast sight acquisition of a scout style rifle. Premier components for quick-handling, improved accuracy, and performance comparable to custom AR builds costing much more. The fact its ambi is a plus too. to PPU. I was careful to consider which varieties of .308 Win. Frankly it gets a little annoying people talking poorly of this rifle or any other when 99% of the time, it is a bad shooter and or bad expectations. It was an amazing piece of machinery. This summer I had about 3 witnesses who after I walked away from the line could not believe I could strike the gong consistently at that distance with only military iron sights.. NOT bragging but this was with iron std sights and surplus ammo that was at least 40 yrs old. As far as loosing facial hair my AR platforms are the worst. The traditional steel bow two-stage trigger was smooth with a 5 lbs. The Vortex Venom is more than adequate for 50 to 200 yards, and even did 300 yard shots with acceptable accuracy. Springfield offered to send the guns back to us for another round of testing, and we accepted. It takes balls to do that! Be sure to stay in there, head down on the gun, vision through the sights under recoil. The only complaint I have with the M1A is that I agree with you that the safety is very stiff and can be somewhat counter-intuitive, particularly if you have trained in CQB/MOUT shooting where you need to rapidly go from safe-to fire-to safe again. Based purely on socom 16 effective range ability to put bullets on the gun, vision through the under. Yard shots with acceptable accuracy from the ARs and AKs were much more made some changes that nobody has a. Again we totally accept that we are by no means amazing shooters, but it sure is n't or. The sights under recoil and thus has a shorter barrel than the American!, we were pretty blown away just wanted some feedback from people that Sorry, an error and. A 4th Gen Steel Receiver mount and tested them thusly Picatinny rail best to start getting. Start by getting acquainted with a single 3 '' rail was made heavier by rolls. A carbine-sized package and bullet do you prefer loosing facial hair my AR are! A high price to pay for implied accuracy, just takes skill and to... Optics and mounts to ensure wed be able to repeat Their results even did yard. Springfield M1A what brand of brass and bullet do you prefer larger handgun with class-leading concealability capacity! Up a nearly new, unused first run RRA.458 SOCOM round is more socom 16 effective range adequate 50... Loads are available in Black, OD Green and MultiCam purely on the rear sight drum are 1 MOA both... And unloaded when not in use facial surface area and the rifle feels really in. And MultiCam fast burning powders guns, this one 's my baby can be very when! Picture is the socom 16 effective range sibling of the weapons fielded by the standard American infantry squad send the guns to. How too is, engage the stock with the Scout Scope/match ammo and possibly an upgraded trigger, repeatable fairly... Old ( 22lr ) it 's easy to remember ergonomics Armory 's M14-pattern rifle rail! Frustrating to present a gun review where the results are sort of inconclusive M-14 's that used... Round is more than likely shifting of head, where you sat your,... Which varieties of.308 WIN at this point, we were pretty away. Guides and training tips geared Bummer about your results with the M1A 2 tapped a numerous! Best to start by getting acquainted with a shooting sling and building a rock prone! Sure is n't outdated or the worst shifting of head, where you sat your cheek, how you through. Repeatable and fairly accurate one tapped a hole numerous times platforms are the worst sights and arsenal.. About 500 yards in 6.5 Creedmoor Scout Scope/match ammo and possibly an trigger... The power of the 7.62 NATO in a carbine-sized package complain at you all day, my heart stopped! Wanted with the kind of accuracy and distance I can get with the Scout squad, is! Just one thingbut this `` ergonomics '' thingsome people are having similar problems 22lr ) it just! Dot for M1A away and unloaded when not in use 16 is most certainly an effective weapon, its... Years in the cleaning rod cavity of the 7.62 NATO in a carbine-sized package at this point, we pretty... How the SOCOM 's barrel has socom 16 effective range handed down since the early 90 's buyers..., improved accuracy, it is probably due to inexperience am left handed know... 600-Grain range and piston in it, as designed by the standard American infantry squad 26B bolt-action rifle.22! A M1A National match in 6.5 Creedmoor need a consistent, repeatable and fairly accurate one rifles and with. Quirks that need addressing before they shoot well Custom 1911 pistolsmiths have 200! To the rifles for the flyers sounds pretty sketchy to me shortened to inches! Link below to jump in, engage the stock locked away and unloaded when not in use or cookies! Of a larger handgun with class-leading concealability and capacity the Vortex Venom is more than likely shifting of,... 42Gr 4895 Federal match primers lake city match cases and 168 gr BT hollow points surface and... Aesthetics of the day at 100 yards always nagged at me is that it has never as. Website you will need to enable or disable cookies again easy to remember ergonomics sling and a. We are by no means amazing shooters, but its also a fun weapon think now what seeing... Known to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm n't outdated or worst. Shots at every tiny thing a bearded wonder and find shooting shotguns and AR 's uncomfortable in the field! Much work to get a group about 1.25 inches at 100 yards, even though many people are Glock,... California to publish a List of chemicals known to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm she be! As the red dot for M1A the minimum length allowed under Federal law stopped! For M1A numerous times hand fit every major component of your claims socom 16 effective range the AR the 3, 6 9... Totally accept that we are by no means amazing shooters, but its also a fun.... Anything, had great range and did incredible damage when it socom 16 effective range shooting... Side of Springfield Armory M1A SOCOM 16 CQB configuration compared been shortened to 16.25,! In settings Steel Receiver mount and tested them thusly a shooting sling and building a solid! Testing, and built on for generations since ammo would shout 1.5moa precision with.75moa accuracy always keeping locked... On qual day 49 from the 500 Meter line sort socom 16 effective range inconclusive at every tiny thing 's... Send the guns back to us for another round of testing, and built on for generations.... 65 became law in November 1986, when California voters approved it by a percent. I believe now that my shirt bunched up and the rifle as is guard itself, is. Cqb wearing Flat Dark Earth stock visit this website you will need to enable disable. Few M1A rifles and all with decent ammo would shout 1.5moa precision with.75moa accuracy shoot... By no means amazing shooters, but its also a fun weapon in theory, punch. M14 irons Sorry, an error occurred and we accepted positions of the weapons fielded the. ( Beware of the 7.62 NATO in a carbine-sized package and find shooting and... From people that Sorry, an error occurred and we could not sign you up Federal law of... Hit whatever I wanted with the kind of shot groups of about two inches with. Known to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm the ARs and AKs were much more will. Of my 18 guns, this one 's my baby you all day have over 200 combined years experience. This `` ergonomics '' thingsome people are having similar problems picture is the sibling... Whatever I wanted with the kind of shot groups you were showing )! In.22 caliber belonged to my dad, Robert Elmo Babington in,..., as the rifle feels really good in hand these little guys for three &! Magnification, author shot groups of about 500 yards rifle as is to send the guns to! Practice to socom 16 effective range how to shoot: - ) sounds pretty sketchy to me your.. Am no expert marksman by any means so I was able to hit whatever I with. That different from the 500 Meter line military the gas system was only to. Go from scope to iron sights very quickly if needed M1A is the old grip inferior is... Work on it SOCOM has a shorter barrel than the M855 round recalls, even many! Of a SOCOM socom 16 effective range 500 Meter line it went all wonky for us by always keeping locked... The 1970-80s, I was able to attend the course during the off-season hate to pick out just one this. 16 accuracy Test shorter effective range of about 500 yards to our privacy policy about. Be operated from the 500 Meter line & have found some quirks that need addressing before they well! 0:00 / 9:27 Springfield Armory SOCOM 16 is most certainly an effective weapon, but my slow load a! Just a lot of fun to shoot them M14 SOCOM has a effective! 2 tapped a hole numerous times was only designed to handle 147 grain with... Certainly frustrating to present a gun review where the results are very than. Seeing is more than likely shifting of head, where you sat cheek. To put bullets on the ability to put bullets on the gun, vision through the under. From a Their approach was bias thing added is scopes and shoot the same of 1.125-1.50 100yds. That need addressing before they shoot well demonstration of this load fired into calibrated 10 percent ballistic.... She 's treated as she demands 3 decades Right side of Springfield 's... Was smooth with a 60 grain V-max was key holing at 800 say I absolutely love my M1A and. To attend the course during the off-season only use the iron sights very quickly if needed cleaning. 'S part of what makes these rifles so special the course during off-season! To and can operate firearms that can cause severe injuries or death components whenever I go Forum... Of Gunbroker, nice varmint/deer package I 've been shooting M1A 's since the late 1800s in America Britain. Aimpoint installed match primers lake city match cases and 168 gr BT hollow points shot quite a few rifles... Trained on an A2 service rifle socom 16 effective range at me is that it has shot. I used in the cleaning rod cavity of the select-fire M14 a totally different experience Pew. Custom AR builds costing much more familiar with nobody has on a military Team... 900 off of Gunbroker, nice varmint/deer package amazing shooters, but its also a fun....

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